Nadezhda Pertseva: In the Moscow studio - author and presenter Egor Yakovlev. Today his guest is the editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta Dmitry Muratov. So, good afternoon, Egor Vladimirovich. Good afternoon, Dmitry. And briefly about our guest. It is curious that the surname Muratov is an old Tatar surname, as I found out, dating back to the era of the Moscow principality, associated with Tatar yoke in Russia. It comes from a word with the meaning - desire and goal.
So, Dmitry Andreevich Muratov. Born on October 29, 1961 in Samara. Graduated from the Faculty of Philology of Kuibyshev State University. He worked as a correspondent for Volzhsky Komsomolets in the city of Samara, as a department head, and then as a member of the editorial board of Komsomolskaya Pravda. In 1993, he took part in the creation of a new daily newspaper, which later became Novaya Gazeta. Now he is the editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta.
The most valuable advice that Dmitry received in his life: the car has one steering wheel. That is, do what you can do better than others, and don’t stop others from doing what they do better. The principle of the newspaper: ethics above politics.
To the question - which of your contemporaries are you most influenced by? - Dmitry answered that this was his grandmother, Mikhail Gorbachev, Yegor Yakovlev, Grigory Yavlinsky, Lawyer Rost.
Next about the beloved. Favorite place to relax is a sofa, game is hockey, pet is a dog, sports activity is sitting with friends, type of clothing is a sweater. Favorite aphorism: it’s better to do it and regret it than to regret not doing it. Favorite time years - autumn, rain, shore, glass. Favorite holiday - May 9. Favorite word in Russian - strange.
According to Dmitry Muratov, the interests of Russia are very often replaced by the interests of the authorities.
So, Yegor Vladimirovich, the floor is yours.
Egor Yakovlev: Good afternoon. Thank you for taking the time to come to Freedom today. I know that Sunday is your parent's day, you should be at home. I am very touched by your attention and response to my requests.
Somewhere at the very dawn of perestroika, when we began to be friends, around then, there was a very popular joke: what is the similarity between a fly and a minister? - both a fly and a minister can be squashed with a newspaper.
Tell me, is this joke true today or not?
Dmitry Muratov: Yes, exactly the opposite: now both the minister and the fly can slam the newspaper. The fly is all sorts of orderlies who rush around the authorities, but the ministers are still the same. Two warnings and no newspaper.
Egor Yakovlev: Well I know that" New Newspaper" V in this case received not two, but significantly more warnings and is conducting constant, I would say, judicial ongoing proceedings, first with one, then with another, and finally with the Prosecutor General’s Office. How does Novaya Gazeta manage to escape these complex vicissitudes?
Dmitry Muratov: Hard question. There is success and there are defeats. A few days ago, after Lena Milashina’s publication in Novaya Gazeta that the submariners on the Kursk boat did not die immediately, but lived for several days and could have been saved, the Ministry of Defense filed a lawsuit against Novaya Gazeta.
We were able to attract those experts whom we once relied on anonymously, and they proved right in court that knocks on the inner lining of the submarine with a wrench or some kind of hammer really existed, and these were SOS knocks. And it was not on any other ship that some drunken mechanic accidentally knocked on the hull. This was misinterpreted by the Ministry of Defense, which shielded all its admirals and all its superiors. And we managed to win this trial, by presenting this evidence, these acoustic diagrams.
And with the General Prosecutor’s Office, the trial that we had two weeks ago, by the way, in that very famous Basmanny court... I want to tell you, since you said here that I have a Tatar surname, I don’t know anything about it, but “basma” from Tatar is “the footprint of the khan,” which his subordinate must keep before his eyes. So in this very Basmanny court there was a trial with the prosecutor’s office.
On all points of the actual accusation that First Deputy Prosecutor General Biryukov made to us - in particular, on the smuggling of furniture and connections with the FSB of "Grand" and "Three Whales", on the fact that the Minister of Energy Adamov simultaneously registered his private company in America, and for all others - not a single refutation. But we were fined for saying that " General Prosecutor's Office stood as a wall in the way of the Anti-Corruption Commission of the State Duma." For this we were awarded a fine, although not 11 million, as the Prosecutor General's Office requested. She overestimated her dignity, honor and business reputation, in my opinion, by exactly 11 million rubles, Well, oh well. But we were awarded 600 thousand rubles for this phrase. This can, of course, be made crazy.
That's why we win and lose. We will not pay, we will file a cassation.
Egor Yakovlev: It's clear. Dim, then tell me your analysis, what’s the matter, why today, for example, Novaya Gazeta gives a lot of critical materials, Anya Politkovskaya alone gave how much on Chechnya, today no one will probably be able to count, why then all the critical materials remain practically overboard? Is it the fault of the state, which does not want to respond to the press, or is it the society, which is tired and does not care?
Dmitry Muratov: I agree with the second part that society is tired. It's really tired. Freedom is now not included as a priority commodity in the consumer basket. The public really wanted information 10-15 years ago, starting in 1985. Then it got fed up with this information and is now waiting again. For example, I am expecting new information interest from society.
As for the fact that nothing is happening, I here, Yegor Vladimirovich, simply fundamentally disagree with you. We started it in the newspaper special service. I think I once spoke about this here on Radio Liberty. There is a wonderful article, Article 59 of the Code of Administrative Offences. This is my advice to everyone. The newspaper has the right to send material to the official who is responsible for something that is written about in the publication, demanding an answer. If an official does not respond within two weeks, he automatically goes to court, simply for not responding. And when he is tried and sentenced to a fine, this does not relieve him of the need to respond to the newspaper.
We have launched such a service feedback, and I can tell you that over 10 criminal cases were opened in the area of military operations based on Politkovskaya’s speeches alone. And we now receive answers regularly. You have to treat an official with his own weapon - so we try to do this with such an innocent expression in our eyes.
Nadezhda Pertseva: If you allow me, I will immediately read the message that came to us via pager from Marina from Samara. “Huge greetings and wishes for creative success to Mr. Muratov from Samara. It is no longer possible to buy Novaya Gazeta with the Samara supplement on Sunday. We need to increase the circulation. We hope that Dmitry Muratov will come to his homeland and perform for us. We will wait. We are proud of such fellow countrymen.”
Dmitry Muratov: Thank you very much Marina. The circulation can be increased when the number of such wonderful Marinas increases.
Nadezhda Pertseva: Yes, and there is one more story that we ask for comment. “The other day I was in Berlin. I had a dream: there was a coup in Russia, all the Russians in Berlin gathered at the station, everyone was saying what to do; I met a journalist I knew and said: “Let’s stay here, open a news office, call Muratov, we’ll write.” I decided that a romance is starting, I call Muratov. He laughs: “Korpunkt is good. But I'm afraid that this will be a correspondent office for the camp wall newspaper." Your comments? Alexander from Berlin."
Dmitry Muratov: Regarding the fact that a revolution took place in Russia, in my opinion, it absolutely took place. First of all, it took place in the minds, instantly. Yegor Vladimirovich, when he led huge demonstrations near the Moscow News for the abolition of Article 6 of the Constitution, for civil liberties, for the priority of individual rights over the rights of government and the state, in my opinion, could not think, and I could not think then, that so quickly the muscle memory will return, and instantly people will begin to be terribly afraid of the sound of their own voice, afraid to express their opinion.
Such a lackey, as Rozov once said, and I would add a stronger word - the lack of support that has occurred at this particular moment in time, it is already such that this revolution in minds has already occurred. It has become scary, now meanness is called pragmatism, such euphemisms happen everywhere, people do not want to remain on the sidelines of what they think is a correct historical process, do not spit against the wind (so as not to quote the saying verbatim). In this sense, the revolution has already occurred
There are some very serious, very high-quality, high standards the people who live their lives are the people I focus on. For example, Yakovlev is sitting here, opposite me - he has remained unchanged in this sense.
Egor Yakovlev: Thank you. I wanted to ask about something else. You understand what’s going on, when after the start of perestroika we began to talk in full voice, we often had to answer at a press conference that if a person was mute for 70 years, then when he woke up, he could not become talkative. But if a person was given the opportunity to speak for 20 years, he probably cannot immediately become mute. Agree?
I'm talking about the current state of affairs. Are you right when you think that there is so much fear in society, so much swindle in society, and so much in general the pretense that we are talking about now? Maybe you're not entirely right? Maybe we, so to speak, think worse about the country in which we live?
Dmitry Muratov: An absolutely total desire to demonstrate one’s own loyalty, starting from the very top... Look, the other day one journalist came from the office of the current Deputy Prime Minister Vladimir Yakovlev, former mayor St. Petersburg. He once survived from St. Petersburg current president Putin and his teacher Sobchak. Then Putin forced Yakovlev out of St. Petersburg, replacing him with Matvienko. Now Yakovlev sits in Putin’s government, and behind him hangs a huge portrait of Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.
But that's what's at the top. And look what...
Egor Yakovlev: Well, Yakovlev couldn’t have anything else on his mind. I know Yakovlev well enough, and according to his level, this should have been hanging.
Dmitry Muratov: This is a sign, Yegor Vladimirovich, it’s just a sign. This is complete lack of independence and complete wild, total fear of what the boss, yes, the boss of the country, will think. In general, Yegor Vladimirovich, where are you... Well, we hired a hired worker for 4 years as the country’s manager - Putin, right? Well, where have you seen portraits of hired workers printed on all school notebooks and hung behind their backs by deputy prime ministers? Well, you just need to look at it all with normal eyes.
The same thing happens in society. Look, the day before yesterday, I think, there was this congress of the Russian Union of Industrialists and Entrepreneurs, which is sometimes called an oligarchic trade union. They were told: “Tuts about YUKOS and about Khodorkovsky languishing in the dungeons” - they said: “There are tsits.” They were given a candy called “now you will not buy back the land for your enterprises” - and Andrei Kolesnikov writes brilliantly in Kommersant that Putin has not heard such applause even at United Russia.
You see, they betrayed their colleague, who was arrested in the same way as Bin Laden would have been arrested - with Alpha, with blocked planes, with a night landing in Novosibirsk. They immediately handed him over, even the brave Chubais. Okay, at least he didn’t go there, didn’t disgrace himself, but ended up in Nizhnevartovsk, urgently launching a state district power plant there. But what is this?
People with money, people with a past, people with backbones. I don’t believe that people without the will could build a fairly modern economy, which they are now partially building. And what happened to them? What kind of disgrace was that?
Egor Yakovlev: Dima, why are you surprised, in general, that the generation that originates from Pavlik Morozov today behaves this way and not otherwise? You see, I may be surprised by other things. I can be surprised that during perestroika (a time that you and I really value and love), during the time of Mikhail Sergeevich Gorbachev, people did not change. But I hope that people had to change, because it’s also funny if their families were now raised in a completely different way.
Dmitry Muratov: Egor Vladimirovich, I’ll tell you this. Everyone lives, it seems to me, this very same life. It’s just that for some, freedom is like a condition for living life to the fullest, while for others it is only security or only money. This is what we are dealing with now. Of course, Seneca once said my favorite phrase, the phrase sounded brilliant. When he was reproached for why he first served a republic, a democracy, and then a tyrant, he said: “I am convinced that the method of government does not affect the amount of personal happiness.” This may be true. But watch how decent people begin to wag their eyes, and everything will happen, as happened in Zoshchenko’s story, in his memoirs, when he crossed to the other side of the street, so that, God forbid, he would not compromise someone if he had to meet him . This is simply shameful.
Egor Yakovlev: I believe that society today is filled with two fears. We'll talk about the second fear later. Fear number one is the choking of the independent press, the free press, the uncensored existence. And, in general, knowing that four of the rest stations became state-owned, this does not surprise me, although I cannot say that, looking at the newspapers today and seeing the assessments, for example, for YUKOS, which even such newspapers give , like Izvestia (although after Raf Shakirov one would like to think that they will be different... not after, but with the arrival of Raf Shakirov), nevertheless, in general, newspapers behave quite freely.
Well, according to your teaching, when I saw in Novaya Gazeta the preface to the book “Tales of a Kremlin Digger” by Lena Tregubova, I read this book, moreover, last night I simply talked to Lena, expressing my respect to her. So, I still can’t imagine that somewhere in your youth (I’m not even talking about mine) such a book could have been published in this country. After all, it was published, so obviously our talk about the throat of freedom of the press being blocked is not very correct?
Dmitry Muratov: Well, of course, we haven’t gotten around to it yet. I got my hands on television. You said four buttons, but I’ll tell you differently. A year ago, out of six buttons on federal channels, meter buttons, and state buttons, only one was directly available - this Russian television, and today - six, well, with the partial exception of TVS and NTV in particular, there is already a lot of government there. That's it, six.
Yulia Latynina said a wonderful phrase in Novaya Gazeta: of all industries, television is the most important for the president. This is the most important industry. They're done with her, now... I have no doubts about this...
Egor Yakovlev: At what plan?
Dmitry Muratov: ... that they will take on those who are smaller, who have a smaller audience reach. For a long time now, there has been controversy surrounding Echo of Moscow. By the way, the same Tregubova, excuse me, actually has a ban on her profession.
Egor Yakovlev: She was fired, by the way.
Dmitry Muratov: What are you saying, Yegor Vladimirovich?
Egor Yakovlev: Yes.
Dmitry Muratov: I didn't expect that! We have a free press, a free country.
Egor Yakovlev: I accept your humor, but I say that she has been left without work since the 1st, as she told me yesterday. And, probably, we need, although the guild principle has long been lost in many respects, we somehow need to help this woman because she was left without a livelihood.
Dmitry Muratov: Dear Lena, I repeat to you the offer that I have already made three times: come to work with us as a manager political department"Novaya Gazeta". Hello, Muratov.
Egor Yakovlev: Doesn't work?
Dmitry Muratov: She said she would think about it. After this book, she needs to move away from what is happening.
Egor Yakovlev: I still return once again to the topic of critical materials. The Americans somehow made a rule for themselves, they came to the conclusion that after Watergate it was pointless to hope that critical materials would be charisma on which this or that could be built. Critical materials are no longer charismatic.
It hardly makes sense to think that our critical material could be charisma, after the vice president appeared with six suitcases of incriminating evidence, the president himself fell from a bridge, and so on. What should a newspaper do that is accustomed - especially Novaya Gazeta - to the maximum amount of critical material? Maybe the problem is not in the critical material, but in some other approaches?
Nadezhda Pertseva: If possible, Dmitry, you will answer this question after the break. And now I would briefly read out some of the messages that came to us via pager.
“Please explain the situation with the Konservator newspaper. Nikolai from St. Petersburg.”
"Muratov. I am proud of my fellow countryman. Alexander, Samara."
“Everything connected with Anna Politkovskaya causes distrust and hostility. After each trip to Chechnya, she goes to the West to receive bonuses. They probably pay for the feelings that the listener experiences. She hates the Russian army.”
Then the following message came: “The speaker, who is sputtering and trying in every possible way to throw mud at the president, would be worth reminding that on the eve of the March elections, 70 percent of Russians are currently ready to vote for Putin. So continue on.”
“These are two of my favorite editors. I subscribed to Obshchaya Gazeta and Novaya. Among my friends and relatives there are many determined people who are of the same mind as Muratov and Yakovlev. Don’t despair, we really hope for you. Your reader and listener ".
And one more message that came to us via pager.
“Muratova, Yakovleva. Apparently, those who demanded lustration were right. Starovoitova was apparently killed for this. But without repentance there will be no joy. Alexander Georgievich, Samara.
So let's continue.
Egor Yakovlev: Since we ourselves came up with the topic of repentance, I want to return to the second... That is, I see two fears in today's society. The first is the deprivation of freedom of speech, which we started talking about, and maybe we haven’t finished. And the second is the influence of the security forces on the entire politics of Russia.
And here, Dima, I would like to hear from you your sincere opinion. You see, in your memory, in mine, this department was cleared out at least three times. The first time it was cleared was in the times after Lavrenty Pavlovich. He was cleared out when Korzhakov and Barsukov were removed. It was cleared after the putsch. A wild plant continues to develop and threatens our lives more and more. What's the matter? What can be done?
I have one answer, I will tell it later. But now I'm interested in your opinion. What can be done to rid Russia of the horror and fear of security forces?
Dmitry Muratov: Egor Vladimirovich, briefly, three theses. This means, firstly, there is no horror and fear, there is an understanding of what we are dealing with. The understanding for me is this: the current GKB or FSB is a business, it is a well-structured vertically integrated business that is primarily concerned with its material interests.
I can remind you of the episode of the 1991 coup. After all, the entire meeting that led to the putsch, and then to the collapse of the country, for which all the security officers are now fighting and saying: look, the democrats have ruined the country - this meeting at the ABS facility of the First Main Directorate of the State Bureau of the USSR was held by Mr. Vladimir Aleksandrovich Kryuchkov, whom another former PGU employee, Lieutenant Colonel Putin, recently called as an honorary guest on Chekist Day. Then it was their business, and then there was power.
Egor Yakovlev: But I know that at the same point, Lieutenant Colonel Putin dictated his first memoirs.
Dmitry Muratov: On "ABS", yes, I agree. This means, firstly, the role is underestimated... They were supposed to protect the state, but as a result they destroyed it by planning a coup.
Now they are doing business. This is the furniture business, this is arms business, this is the protection of a huge number of commercial structures.
We have published more than once, as, for example, in Nakhodka or in the North Caucasus, current, and moreover, senior-level employees Federal service security forces simply agreed (for example, in Adygea) about what business would now go to them, otherwise they would almost threaten with contract killings. And we printed these records, we handed it all over to the prosecutor's office.
This is a big, serious business. Unfortunately, the authorities have now begun to rely on this business. Moreover, if at first the security officers wanted to provide protection (sorry for this slang) or control other people's businesses by protecting them, now they no longer want this, now they want to own it. This is exactly what cannot be allowed.
And for me personally there is only one antidote. The Cheka, the KGB, the FSB, the president, this underground pocket Federation Council have no meaning if there are courts in the country. Now, if there is a trial in the country, anything can continue, exactly until the second when the two parties meet in the trial. And no one can call this court. And judges in general should become, in my opinion, such “God-bearers”; they should understand that everything now, the majority in the country, rests on them. When they behave exactly in accordance with the law. It seems to me that this is the link that is worth pulling on now - pulling out the courts so that everything will be like this.
Egor Yakovlev: I understand you that the reason for the wildly growing forces of “law enforcement” is that they just want to make money.
Dmitry Muratov: Yes Yes.
Egor Yakovlev: But this is not the answer to why they exist. Because, you see, there were quite a lot of people who wanted - probably our mutual friend Mikhail Sergeevich and others - wanted something else. Why do they exist?
They used to exist because the party was interested in it, right? Who were they weapons for? First of all, for the party. Now who are they a weapon for? Why do they exist with such power? Or are they, so to speak, completely lined up from the lieutenant colonel in rows and ready, in general, to lead us to a KGB coup?
Dmitry Muratov: Yegor Vladimirovich, the fate of the KGB or FSB does not depend on anyone. They determine their own destiny; it is a self-developing structure. They set the rules for themselves, they themselves migrate from one government agency to another, and then return. There are no exes.
Egor Yakovlev: I would really like to call Novaya Gazeta a self-developing structure, but I understand that it cannot be a self-developing structure, living under the current sky.
Nadezhda Pertseva: Let's listen to the call. Good afternoon. We are listening to you. Introduce youreself.
Listener: My name is Irina. Thank you for your word. After I asked a sharp question to Yuri Afanasyev, saying that I believed that he was a skillful renegade posing as the conscience of the nation, I was simply not allowed into the next program, where Shevtsova was, although I got through and was asked to call pager. So, I say: where is censorship? Censorship is primarily on Radio Liberty.
And now a question for Muratov. Tell me which newspaper has currently been closed or at least one journalist has been fired due to political reasons? And are you specifically prohibited from publishing any articles?
Finally. I love your newspaper, I read it. Thank you.
Nadezhda Pertseva: Well, first of all, I want to remind you that your pager message in the last program was read. Well, now I give the floor to our guests.
Egor Yakovlev: Dima, if I say that Obshchaya Gazeta was closed, I will probably be wrong. You speak.
Dmitry Muratov: You don’t need to give me any hints, Yegor Vladimirovich. Firstly, you know what happened with the Obshchaya Gazeta - the Obshchaya Gazeta no longer exists. This is the first thing. Secondly, two days ago, Nersesyan, a lawyer for the Glasnost Defense Foundation, returned from Tolyatti; he was studying the story of how the second editor-in-chief of the Togliatti newspaper Togliatti Review was killed for the second time in a row. I can, excuse me, give you dozens of such examples.
Excuse me, I don’t want to talk about it, I didn’t want to talk about it, but we still don’t understand much about the death of Yuri Petrovich Shchekochikhin, who was a deputy at Novaya Gazeta and a Duma deputy. In our newspaper alone, two more people have died in the last three years. Head of the department Igor Domnikov. The killer, the hired killer has not yet been found, the case has been under the control of the Minister of Internal Affairs for three years. Human rights activist and our Chechen correspondent Viktor Alekseevich Popkov was killed. The killers have not yet been found, and the car, which was shot as evidence, was parked in the district prosecutor's office, was sold for spare parts.
Nadezhda Pertseva: And a message-question, which also concerns Yuri Shchekochikhin: “Has anything new become known about his case? Gennady, Moscow.”
Dmitry Muratov: I can only tell you one thing for now: research continues into everything connected with the death of Yuri Shchekochikhin. And definitely about the results of this study and about the examinations that are being carried out, and about what has become known since that terrible July 3rd for us, when Yura died at 3:55 in the morning from a strange illness, where the allergen, the source of the allergen itself has not been established , - we will definitely inform you about this. But we cannot now, for example, declare that Shchekochikhin was killed or, conversely, that Shchekochikhin died of a strange disease, although he was actually a healthy person in prison, since Yura Shchekochikhin would look at this very skeptically. And this PR “on the bones” is by no means for Yura and not for us.
Nadezhda Pertseva: And one more call. Good afternoon.
Listener: Good afternoon. Artist Smarchevsky. Mr. Yakovlev, you remember, 15 years ago, in 1988, when I was convicted for a picture where I painted a cow with Gorbachev, you were the only newspaper to publish about it.
Egor Yakovlev: No, I don't remember, sorry.
Listener: Well, it was the most famous painting, it was published after your article in all countries of the world. I went abroad and lived in America. I've arrived now...
Egor Yakovlev: It feels so good when you do something kind for someone.
Listener: And you know, you are a knight of perestroika. I ask you, please give me the opportunity to tell your readers what happened to this picture and how it happened in general. It will be very good for you interesting story. And, in fact, it is expected not only in Russia, but also in many countries. Imagine, I drew a cow with Gorbachev, the cow disappeared, Gorbachev disappeared Soviet Union- and this was the forerunner of what you are talking about today. This, in my opinion, would be interesting. Please ask your editor to take my phone number.
Nadezhda Pertseva: Thank you very much for your call.
Egor Yakovlev: They'll take the phone.
So, we are touching on the moment of critical materials, Dima. This means that I still have a deep feeling: when we write about a scoundrel minister, a scoundrel official, about corruption among officials, the old idea hangs over us that we need to replace the chair in the Kremlin - and everything will be all right. The chairs have been changed more than once before our eyes, but everything remains, in general, far from good.
What should a newspaper do today to help the reader cope with the very difficult life in Russia that has developed for him today?
Dmitry Muratov: Honestly? We have nothing personal, excuse me, neither with Putin, nor with Zyuganov, nor with anyone. We, as the reader said that 70 percent will vote for Putin, yes, we represent the interests of those 30 percent, of course, who want to know more than about love. This is what we will do, regardless of whether there is efficiency or not. This is such a market segment, if you like, in this respect we are also marketers. We believe that this should be done and that we should write about it.
Nadezhda Pertseva: And we have calls. Please.
Listener: I'm talking about buying seats in parliament.
Nadezhda Pertseva: Did you want to ask some question?
Listener: Yes, I wanted to ask a question. From Moscow, Natalya Vladimirovna. In the last program, Yegor Vladimirovich Yakovlev said that seats in parliament are being bought.
Egor Yakovlev: And they sell.
Listener: And they sell. Well, I respect Yavlinsky very much, and Yavlinsky said that they took, for example, financial assistance from YUKOS, for which they demanded 4th place on the list. So, you see, I’m not against the oligarchs, I don’t want these oligarchs to be arrested like this, I’m sorry...
Egor Yakovlev: Khodorkovsky.
Listener: I feel sorry for Khodorkovsky. AND law enforcement agencies not under control, everything is clear. But I’ve always voted for Yabloko, and here I understand that we need to take this help, divide it into four - and there will be a place in the Yabloko party... And it seems to me that the oligarchs themselves, in general... then it’s their fault when they started buying everything...
Egor Yakovlev: Well, you know, I believe that not only the one who buys is to blame, but also the one who sells. Although, in general, Grigory Alekseevich is a close personal friend of mine, and Dimin, we are all friends together, in this case I do not share his point of view. And I think that if...
You know, when Gusinsky was arrested in Greece - Gusinsky helped the Obshchaya Gazeta all the time, he was not the only source of the Obshchaya Gazeta, but he helped the Obshchaya Gazeta - I considered it necessary to speak out, although I understood that I would not be happy about it will deliver, in defense of Vladimir Alexandrovich. I think that today I miss Grisha’s voice in defense of Khodorkovsky. I don’t know about Dima.
Dmitry Muratov: You know, you asked, in my opinion, an absolutely stunning question: can we trust the party for which we have always voted, if this party sold places on the list to someone? And in this case they meant YUKOS and Yabloko. You know, this is how you can answer on the square: down with the parties that sell places and the oligarchs that buy them. And I want to ask you to think with me, maybe.
Look, Yabloko absolutely frankly, absolutely openly declared that it was one of the sponsors of the party, and this was never prohibited (after all, the communists still have not disbanded themselves due to the fact that the manufacturer Savva Morozov gave them crazy those days, grandmothers), they openly, Yabloko, declare that they have a sponsor of the party, a partner of the party - YUKOS. YUKOS, without hiding it from anyone, without acting under the carpet, says: “We sponsor liberal, democratic movements, including and first of all Yabloko.”
There is no law on lobbying in our country...
Egor Yakovlev: True, it is difficult for the Communist Party of the Russian Federation to enter here.
Dmitry Muratov: No, no, in our country there is no law on lobbying, and for the first time, of their own free will and on their own initiative, they declared mutual interests for each other. And it seems to me that this is precisely the absolutely civilized approach.
And I will also describe the uncivilized approach to you. Here, look, here in ruling party- I won’t name it, so that, God forbid, some kind of propaganda is later attributed to Radio Liberty - the ruling party, which believes that it will be the ruling party, includes approximately 30 governors. Will they enter parliament and leave their gubernatorial seats? No never. It’s just that when they win, they will leave the list, and their places in parliament will be taken by the next, unknown directors of companies, directors of enterprises - and this is undeclared lobbying.
And it is absolutely clear that this is a serious party business, these are new party contributions. When they are not declared, it is scary. When they are stated, you can think about it, in any case, it is much more open.
Nadezhda Pertseva: A message that continues this topic is via pager. “It’s a fairy tale that Khodorkovsky is an oligarch. You still have to become an oligarch. Putin managed to do it. Dima.”
And we still have a call, if possible. The listeners have been waiting for us for too long. Please be kind, you are on air.
Listener: Hello. Alexander, Moscow. Question for Dmitry Andreevich. I'll try to keep it short. Dmitry Andreevich, we now have a policy of fighting terrorism, and in Moscow there are a lot of streets with the names of terrorists - the first question.
Second question. How do you feel about what a very a short time Were very prominent politicians killed very quickly or simply disappeared? This is not just a showdown, everyone understands it.
And the third question. As soon as the president's rating drops a little, something happens quickly - some next “Nord-Ost”, some next war. Immediately appears " prophetic Oleg"from the KGB - and the rating rises. Thank you.
Dmitry Muratov: It's a very funny question about the streets. I never thought about it. Great question, thanks for it. Let's assume that this is a question that does not need to be answered. Everyone just loved its aesthetic quality.
Egor Yakovlev: In general, you need to get used to the streets. My grandmother taught for a very long time that Myasnitskaya is now called Kirovskaya. Now I teach that Kirovskaya is called Myasnitskaya.
Dmitry Muratov: Regarding the president's rating. You know, I would like the president and “Nord-Ost”, despite the fact that I very much doubt the accuracy of the genesis of the explosions of houses in Moscow, Volgodonsk and the exercises in Ryazan, I would, of course, the president with “Nord-Ost” just like that I didn’t connect it directly.
But when the rating really starts to fall, Rogozin immediately begins to build a scythe through Tuzla - and this is such a whole geopolitical serious project, 600 KamAZ trucks are needed for it and a lot of air, and nodules on his thickened cheeks... This is absolutely certain, here I completely agree with you.
Egor Yakovlev: Here I completely and completely agree with you. Dima, I want, since our time is coming to an end, I wanted to touch on at least one question, how we can be useful to the reader. In general, no matter how it is, we argue about critical materials, not critical materials, that’s not the point. Almost today, the newspaper reminds me a little... Probably - you remember how in childhood - when I asked you for sunflowers, you would take a handful from your pocket and pour it out to me - this is approximately what our newspapers look like according to the information. Because newspapers don’t help me in any way except these sunflowers of information that I already know or will find out tomorrow, but may not know.
In my opinion, there is only one problem: be smart, otherwise you will be beaten. That is, a newspaper should help the reader think. When the reader thinks, he will take a more serious approach to the rating, which for some grows to absolutely incredible, some kind of astronomical proportions. Can a newspaper still help the reader think in order to free him from politics and from power? Because I don’t see any other way to free ourselves from politics and power, except for personal thinking.
Dmitry Muratov: I don’t know what to answer, Egor Vladimirovich. I just haven't come to this idea yet. I believe that if our circulation is growing, it means that people are interested in learning what we are writing about. I am still at a certain impasse in front of your tough question, I have not yet reached it. As Alice says, I still have room to grow under this table.
Egor Yakovlev: But Komsomolskaya Pravda also ensures its circulation.
Dmitry Muratov: Well, of course. Only they are below the belt, and we are above the belt, although they do it with talent.
Here they called about Anna Politkovskaya, that she was risking her life in Chechnya.
Nadezhda Pertseva: There was this message.
Dmitry Muratov: Yes, on a pager. Risks his life in Chechnya in order to receive Nobel Prize, and splashes saliva on the country. I will not answer this person. I ask, if he is a normal and decent person, to call the same pager he called and leave your phone number. They will call him back from the reception desk of Novaya Gazeta and invite him to go on his first business trip with Politkovskaya to Chechnya, so that he will understand perfectly well at what price, as it seems to him, the imaginary fees that he attributes to her are earned.
Nadezhda Pertseva: And we still have a listener. Good afternoon.
Listener: My name is Tatyana Bogomolova. I want to thank both Yegor Vladimirovich and Dmitry, because Obshchaya Gazeta was our most main newspaper, and now Novaya Gazeta remains. After the closure of TVS, this newspaper, Novaya Gazeta, is our only window into the Russian world, and it helps us not only think, as you just said, it helps us live, because we trust only this newspaper. And in particular, only in this newspaper, from the generally heroic, absolutely incredible, in my opinion, reports of Anna Politkovskaya, who risks her life, do we learn about what is happening in Chechnya. “Novaya Gazeta” is the only newspaper that is “not tired” (let’s say in quotes) of writing about Chechnya and telling us everything about the horror that no one wants to think about.
Nadezhda Pertseva: Thanks for your call.
Egor Yakovlev: Thank you. And I am very pleased that at the end of our program you kind words they said about Dima.
Nadezhda Pertseva: And we have literally another minute and a half, if possible, to briefly exchange some words.
Dmitry Muratov: Can I say? You see, Yegor Vladimirovich always asks very tough and very precise questions. I don’t have answers to them, I just want to say that one of the most important answers that we in the newspaper understood for ourselves is that you need to live your life according to the same standards and treat your profession approximately in the same way as the person who had I would have dreamed of doing an interview, but it turned out that today we talked together, I mean Yakovlev. And I had to say it. And I am very glad that I have this opportunity.
The editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta, who has three days left to work in this capacity, told Fontanka what will change in the publication and what the editorial policy will be now
Irina Bujor/Kommersant
On Friday, November 17, Novaya Gazeta will hold elections for its editor-in-chief. This is a procedure provided for by the Editorial Charter. Three journalists nominated candidates. For the first time since 1995, Dmitry Muratov is not among them. He did not put forward himself and asked his colleagues not to put his name on the “ballots.” Some colleagues were quick to comment on this as a result of pressure on one of the few independent publications, while others were glad that the “opposition” newspaper had “blown away.” What is really happening at Novaya, why Dmitry Muratov no longer wants to head the editorial office - he told Fontanka about this.
Dmitry Muratov is one of the founders of Novaya Gazeta. In 1992, a group of employees of Komsomolskaya Pravda left it and created the 6th Floor partnership (Komsomolskaya Pravda » was located on the 6th floor of the publishing complex "Pravda"), which was the founder of the "New Daily Newspaper" with the financial support of ex-President of the USSR Mikhail Gorbachev. Later the publication was renamed. Sergei Kozheurov, who currently holds the post, was elected editor-in-chief general director. In 1995, the team elected Dmitry Muratov, and since then the editor-in-chief of Novaya has not changed. The newspaper is famous for its special reports and investigations. Journalists Yuri Shchekochikhin, Anna Politkovskaya, Anastasia Baburova, Igor Domnikov, Natalya Etemirova, who published in Novaya, were killed.
- Dmitry Andreevich, what does it mean that the editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta leaves his post? Were you forced?
– The editors have a Charter. The Charter defines the norm. By the way, I was the initiator of this norm: the editor-in-chief is a figure who is out-of-control. Elected by the editors. The editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta is an elected position.
- But this does not mean that the current editor cannot nominate himself, but you did not nominate him.
– The term of office of the editor-in-chief is two years. I've been working for 22 years.
Do you want to leave for the sake of a beautiful gesture that will demonstrate the turnover of power and the democratic nature of the procedure? Or are you just tired and leaving?
– I didn’t say the word “fatigue” and I don’t know where it came from in numerous comments. Sometimes after 22 years you need to think about changing the hand in managing the company. Or in running a country. Two years ago, I warned my close friends, members of the editorial board, that I would not go to the next elections, that 22 was too much. I had a lot of conversations and polemics. Sometimes - conversations with tears. Sometimes - with reproaches.
- Did you ask to stay?
– You know, if five to seven years ago they kept telling me: “If you leave the newspaper, it’s the end of it,” then, thank God, for the last five to seven years no one has been saying anything like that. Because Novaya Gazeta is not a leader-type company. I'm serious. We have created a generation of people that unites those great people who once founded the newspaper and those who came to us in the early 2000s after their first or second year at university. These people are brilliant. Reliable and responsible. This is an editorial staff of people who can make absolutely honest and conscious choices. I wrote a letter to the readers. Maybe I won't be understood much. But I am absolutely sure that the most important thing in any election and in any change of power, in the renewal of intellectual and human potential, is not the quality of the leader, but the quality of the voters. If the voter is competent, deep and professional, then he is more important than the chosen one.
- But you’re not completely leaving...
- Of course not!
You remain the head of the editorial board, that is, in a capacity that I would compare to the post of leader of the nation under the current president.
- ABOUT! So I knew that something about Deng Xiaoping was about to arrive. Before our conversation, I went to the table and wrote on a piece of paper. Do you want me to send it to you? I wrote: now he will talk about Deng Xiaoping.
- And I wanted to say even about Kazakhstan.
– It seems to you that there is a breakthrough guess in this, but for me there is none. I want there to be an update, to have elections. We have real “debates” going on in our editorial office. But my life is connected with this newspaper, you know? I'm not going to give up my life. I just want it to be updated. I will help her as a publisher. As the person who forms the editorial board. In it we will create an image of the future.
- An image of what future?
– Nobody believes in purity of intentions. However, yesterday I read hundreds of responses to an article in RBC about my departure - and only one questioned the sincerity of my departure. That, they say, this is some kind of cleansing of the media space. What the hell is a cleanup?!
I'm not asking about sincerity. The position of editor-in-chief will be replaced by a person for whom you have been the main one for many years. Whether he wants it or not, he will look back at you.
“Maybe he’ll look back.” So what? First of all, we don't know who it will be. Secondly, he will have the most important quality in his hands: he will be chosen by the great and wonderful editors - the competent, stern, cheerful editors of Novaya Gazeta. Try to understand me. These people are the ones who give power. They are the source of power. And how he will build a relationship with me - frankly speaking, this is the tenth question. Yes, this editors treat me with tenderness, I know that. But I will definitely not be the second “center of power.” I respect people's choices. And I respect that they supported me and accepted my decision not to put forward my candidacy.
- What if, right before your eyes, the new editor-in-chief begins to change the editorial policy?
– See the Editorial Charter. Amendments adopted at general meeting. Generally speaking, you are the first person to ask me this question. There was no such question in one and a half hundred interviews yesterday. If so, guess what powers I have.
You probably want me to remember the media law, the article stating that the publisher has no right to influence editorial policy?
– That’s right, but what powers do I have as the chairman of the editorial board? What did the team offer in such a case? If I understand that the editor-in-chief is under pressure and is forced to change the editorial policy of autonomy and independence, then I have the right, together with the editorial board, to declare - what? Well, Ir?
- Direct presidential rule.
- Funny. But no. Announce early election. An absolutely democratic norm.
When Novaya Gazeta published an article about Aksana Panova, editor-in-chief of znak.com and former editor ura.ru, in one interview you said that you discussed this topic with the presidential administration...
– A colleague of mine and I was put on trial because she was involved in a big political struggle, who was a very bright figure. And now she is an incredibly bright, significant figure. For this they were ready to put her in prison. I then had a long conversation in the presidential administration on a different topic, about the installation of a monument to the victims political repression. I was invited there by the first deputy head of the administration, Vyacheslav Volodin. Having discussed the monument that was erected now, on October 31, thank God, I took the opportunity to talk with decision-makers, as a human rights activist.
I didn’t mean to reproach you with this, but just wanted to ask: if now you need to discuss some topic on behalf of Novaya Gazeta in the AP, who will now do it - still you or the new editor-in-chief?
– It depends not so much on the position, but on motivation.
- Whichever candidate becomes the new chief, it will apparently be a person of less authority than you.
– This is a very serious question, which already relates to the global foundations of the psyche and mass consciousness. In our country, a person has not yet taken a position of power - it is believed that no one knows him. But what do they say about those who occupy positions of power?
- “If not him, then who.”
- Yes! They say: there is no alternative to him. But as soon as another person finds himself in a position of power, it turns out that there is now no alternative to him. And so we show by the example of our editorial staff: the change of power is not only what we see in outside world. Not only what we are waiting for “outside”. This must be taken into account as well. A person who comes to power through legitimate means becomes the center of power himself. Our newspaper has the best voters in the world, and their choice will have to be taken into account. That is, you will have to conduct all conversations with the editor-in-chief, who will be elected by Novaya Gazeta.
And money? Your newspaper has faced financial problems several times; there was a time when paper publication was almost suspended. Who will look for money if necessary? Also the new chief?
– Do you think that we live in ideal world, where there are excellent advertisers, investors, where everything happens according to market laws? If I need to walk with my hand outstretched and knock my knees so that the newspaper comes out, I will stretch out my hand and crawl.
- I wish I didn’t have to.
“I will not abandon this newspaper and I hope that it will not abandon me.” The main thing is that she will not abandon the reader. The most important thing for this newspaper are two outstanding principles formulated by Yura Shchekochikhin and Yura Rost, two of my great friends. Schekach's principle: do not hit or lick below the waist. The Growth Principle: general compassion for the course of life. I expect the newspaper to follow this path: between cathode and anode, plus and minus. With tough investigations, but without hitting below the belt. With cooperation and work - without licking below it. And to sympathize general progress life. I hope that the newspaper will continue this program.
Interviewed by Irina Tumakova, Fontanka.ru
In Russia it has always been quite difficult to express your opinion directly and without fear of censorship. Each government establishes special criteria for the truth and falsity of arguments, but at all times there have been people trying to circumvent obstacles in the triumph of truth. In the 19th-20th centuries these were writers, poets, and in the last twenty years - journalists. Today in our country there are many figures who have their own views on what is happening around them, among them is the editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta, Dmitry Muratov.
Biography
He was born on October 30, 1961 in Kuibyshev, present-day Samara. There he successfully graduated from the state university, where he studied at the Faculty of Philology for five years. While still at the institute, Dmitry Muratov realized his inclination towards journalism, and also met correspondents from local newspapers.
But like anyone to the Soviet man, first it was necessary to repay his debt to the Motherland, and from 1983 to 1985 he served in the ranks of the Red Army. Later, Dmitry Andreevich Muratov will mention the essence of his activities in the troops, calling himself a specialist responsible for classifying equipment.
He began working as a correspondent in 1987 at the Volzhsky Komsomolets newspaper, where the young specialist was able to immediately prove himself and in the same year was appointed head of the youth department of Komsomolskaya Pravda, and a little later - editor of news articles.
Journalistic activity
The beginning of his career in periodical media coincided with important stage in the life of the country - perestroika and putsch. Young activists of the newspaper, including Dmitry Muratov, did not stand aside from political life state and decided to organize their own propaganda department, but managed to release only a few copies of the illegal Obshchaya Gazeta, after which they were declassified and the project was closed.
Already in the new democratic reality, the editorial board of Komsomolskaya Pravda is split into two camps, the reason was the problem of people’s misunderstanding different eras, departed and emerging ideology. Young correspondents formed the “6th Floor” partnership; later they became the creators of a periodical called “Novaya Gazeta”. According to available information, they were provided with financial assistance by Mikhail Gorbachev and General Lebedev.
Dmitry Muratov was a member of the editorial board of NG, but at the same time he was also an extraordinary correspondent for the newspaper. Yes, in the midst of Chechen war, in 1994-1995, he was on the front line, covering fighting in hot spots.
Chief Editor
Novaya Gazeta is one of the few Russian publications involved in investigative journalism. The nature of the reports almost always has an acute social and political overtones. During the existence of the newspaper, correspondents covered such events as the hostage taking at Dubrovka, the scandal with Colonel Budanov, police outrages in Chechnya and much more. Because of their journalistic activities, some newspaper employees were killed, survived assassination attempts, or received threats.
Dmitry Muratov is the editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta from 1995 to the present day. Many accused the publication's management of deliberately distorting Russian reality to please Western founders such as Mikhail Gorbachev. Lawsuits have been filed against the newspaper more than once, and some articles have been refuted in court. In 2014, Roskomnadzor issued a warning to NG, accusing it of inciting ethnic hatred and supporting extremist statements.
Participation in the political life of the country
Despite all the difficulties and scandals, the newspaper continues to be one of the popular Russian publications today. Moreover, Dmitry Muratov is also an active participant in the political life of Russia. So, in 2004, he, together with other public figures, organized the “2008: Free choice", whose participants advocated the cancellation of the election results in State Duma fourth convocation.
They wrote an appeal to Supreme Court Russia and presented evidence of dishonest conduct of the electoral program. In particular, they accused the election organizers of deliberate deception and inclusion of “ dead souls"into the voting process. The initiative was rejected by the highest authority, and Dmitry Muratov himself resigned from the Committee, completely disillusioned with the forces of the democrats.
Scandals
Journalistic activity rarely proceeds without accusations of libel. As editor of Novaya Gazeta, Dmitry Muratov often found himself at the center of various scandals. One of the largest was associated with the name of Ramzan Kadyrov.
In 2008 the chapter Chechen Republic unexpectedly for everyone, he was accepted into the Russian Union of Journalists for his special services in supporting a free press and press in his region. As a sign of protest, well-known journalists, including Muratov, decided to leave the union. Moreover, the editor of Novaya Gazeta called Kadyrov a “cannibal” in an interview.
A little later, the decision was canceled due to the lack of any evidence of real assistance from the head of Chechnya to the local media. And Kadyrov himself filed several lawsuits against the editorial board of NG in connection with articles where he and his associates were accused of torture and murder. The case did not progress, since the plaintiff later withdrew all his demands.
Dmitry Muratov worked on television for some time, was the host of the program “The Trial is Coming” and “Scandals of the Week” on TV-6 Moscow. The journalist received a number of awards, including the prestigious International Prize “Memorial” and “Stalker”. Even today Muratov never stops defending his civil position and remains at the forefront of the country's social and political life.
Leading: Egor YakovlevNadezhda Pertseva: In the Moscow studio - author and presenter Egor Yakovlev. Today his guest is the editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta Dmitry Muratov. So, good afternoon, Egor Vladimirovich. Good afternoon, Dmitry. And briefly about our guest. It is curious that the surname Muratov is an old Tatar surname, as I found out, dating back to the era of the Moscow principality, associated with the Tatar yoke in Russia. It comes from a word with the meaning - desire and goal.
So, Dmitry Andreevich Muratov. Born on October 29, 1961 in Samara. Graduated from the Faculty of Philology of Kuibyshev State University. He worked as a correspondent for Volzhsky Komsomolets in the city of Samara, as a department head, and then as a member of the editorial board of Komsomolskaya Pravda. In 1993, he took part in the creation of a new daily newspaper, which later became Novaya Gazeta. Now he is the editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta.
The most valuable advice that Dmitry received in his life: the car has one steering wheel. That is, do what you can do better than others, and don’t stop others from doing what they do better. The principle of the newspaper: ethics above politics.
To the question - which of your contemporaries are you most influenced by? - Dmitry answered that this was his grandmother, Mikhail Gorbachev, Yegor Yakovlev, Grigory Yavlinsky, Lawyer Rost.
Next about the beloved. Favorite place to relax is a sofa, game is hockey, pet is a dog, sports activity is sitting with friends, type of clothing is a sweater. Favorite aphorism: it’s better to do it and regret it than to regret not doing it. Favorite time of year: autumn, rain, shore, glass. Favorite holiday - May 9. Favorite word in Russian is strange.
According to Dmitry Muratov, the interests of Russia are very often replaced by the interests of the authorities.
So, Yegor Vladimirovich, the floor is yours.
Egor Yakovlev: Good afternoon. Thank you for taking the time to come to Freedom today. I know that Sunday is your parent's day, you should be at home. I am very touched by your attention and response to my requests.
Somewhere at the very dawn of perestroika, when we began to be friends, around then, there was a very popular joke: what is the similarity between a fly and a minister? - both a fly and a minister can be squashed with a newspaper.
Tell me, is this joke true today or not?
Dmitry Muratov: Yes, exactly the opposite: now both the minister and the fly can slam the newspaper. The fly is all sorts of orderlies who rush around the authorities, but the ministers are still the same. Two warnings and no newspaper.
Egor Yakovlev: Well, I know that Novaya Gazeta in this case received not two, but significantly more warnings and is conducting constant, I would say, judicial ongoing proceedings with one, then with others, and finally with the Prosecutor General's Office. How does Novaya Gazeta manage to escape these complex vicissitudes?
Dmitry Muratov: Hard question. There is success and there are defeats. A few days ago, after Lena Milashina’s publication in Novaya Gazeta that the submariners on the Kursk boat did not die immediately, but lived for several days and could have been saved, the Ministry of Defense filed a lawsuit against Novaya Gazeta.
We were able to attract those experts whom we once relied on anonymously, and they proved right in court that knocks on the inner lining of the submarine with a wrench or some kind of hammer really existed, and these were SOS knocks. And it was not on any other ship that some drunken mechanic accidentally knocked on the hull. This was misinterpreted by the Ministry of Defense, which shielded all its admirals and all its superiors. And we managed to win this trial, by presenting this evidence, these acoustic diagrams.
And with the General Prosecutor’s Office, the trial that we had two weeks ago, by the way, in that very famous Basmanny court... I want to tell you, since you said here that I have a Tatar surname, I don’t know anything about it, but “basma” from Tatar is “the footprint of the khan,” which his subordinate must keep before his eyes. So in this very Basmanny court there was a trial with the prosecutor’s office.
On all points of the actual accusation that First Deputy Prosecutor General Biryukov made to us - in particular, on the smuggling of furniture and connections with the FSB of "Grand" and "Three Whales", on the fact that the Minister of Energy Adamov simultaneously registered his private company in America, and for all others - not a single refutation. But we were fined for the phrase that “The Prosecutor General’s Office stood in the way of the State Duma Anti-Corruption Commission.” For this we were awarded a fine, although not 11 million, as the Prosecutor General’s Office requested. She overestimated her dignity, honor and business reputation, in my opinion, by exactly 11 million rubles, but oh well. But we were awarded 600 thousand rubles for this phrase. This can, of course, be made up with brains.
That's why we win and lose. We will not pay, we will file a cassation.
Egor Yakovlev: It's clear. Dim, then tell me your analysis, what’s the matter, why today, for example, Novaya Gazeta gives a lot of critical materials, Anya Politkovskaya alone gave how much on Chechnya, today no one will probably be able to count, why then all the critical materials remain practically overboard? Is it the fault of the state, which does not want to respond to the press, or is it the society, which is tired and does not care?
Dmitry Muratov: I agree with the second part that society is tired. It's really tired. Freedom is now not included as a priority commodity in the consumer basket. The public really wanted information 10-15 years ago, starting in 1985. Then it got fed up with this information and is now waiting again. For example, I am expecting new information interest from society.
As for the fact that nothing is happening, I here, Yegor Vladimirovich, simply fundamentally disagree with you. We started a special service in the newspaper. I think I once spoke about this here on Radio Liberty. There is a wonderful article, Article 59 of the Code of Administrative Offences. This is my advice to everyone. The newspaper has the right to send material to the official who is responsible for something that is written about in the publication, demanding an answer. If an official does not respond within two weeks, he automatically goes to court, simply for not responding. And when he is tried and sentenced to a fine, this does not relieve him of the need to respond to the newspaper.
We have launched such a feedback service, and I can tell you that over 10 criminal cases were opened in the area of military operations based on Politkovskaya’s speeches alone. And we now receive answers regularly. You have to treat an official with his own weapon - so we try to do this with such an innocent expression in our eyes.
Nadezhda Pertseva: If you allow me, I will immediately read the message that came to us via pager from Marina from Samara. “Huge greetings and wishes for creative success to Mr. Muratov from Samara. It is no longer possible to buy Novaya Gazeta with the Samara supplement on Sunday. We need to increase the circulation. We hope that Dmitry Muratov will come to his homeland and perform for us. We will wait. We are proud of such fellow countrymen.”
Dmitry Muratov: Thank you very much Marina. The circulation can be increased when the number of such wonderful Marinas increases.
Nadezhda Pertseva: Yes, and there is one more story that we ask for comment. “The other day I was in Berlin. I had a dream: there was a coup in Russia, all the Russians in Berlin gathered at the station, everyone was saying what to do; I met a journalist I knew and said: “Let’s stay here, open a news office, call Muratov, we’ll write.” I decided that a romance is starting, I call Muratov. He laughs: “Korpunkt is good. But I'm afraid that this will be a correspondent office for the camp wall newspaper." Your comments? Alexander from Berlin."
Dmitry Muratov: Regarding the fact that a revolution took place in Russia, in my opinion, it absolutely took place. First of all, it took place in the minds, instantly. Yegor Vladimirovich, when he led huge demonstrations near the Moscow News for the abolition of Article 6 of the Constitution, for civil liberties, for the priority of individual rights over the rights of government and the state, in my opinion, could not think, and I could not think then, that so quickly the muscle memory will return, and instantly people will begin to be terribly afraid of the sound of their own voice, afraid to express their opinion.
Such a lackey, as Rozov once said, and I would add a stronger word - the lack of support that has occurred at this particular moment in time, it is already such that this revolution in minds has already occurred. It has become scary, now meanness is called pragmatism, such euphemisms happen everywhere, people do not want to remain on the sidelines of what they think is a correct historical process, do not spit against the wind (so as not to quote the saying verbatim). In this sense, the revolution has already occurred
There remain some very serious, very high-quality people who live their lives according to high standards, whom I focus on. For example, Yakovlev is sitting here, opposite me - he has remained unchanged in this sense.
Egor Yakovlev: Thank you. I wanted to ask about something else. You understand what’s going on, when after the start of perestroika we began to talk in full voice, we often had to answer at a press conference that if a person was mute for 70 years, then when he woke up, he could not become talkative. But if a person was given the opportunity to speak for 20 years, he probably cannot immediately become mute. Agree?
I'm talking about the current state of affairs. Are you right when you think that there is so much fear in society, so much swindle in society, and so much in general the pretense that we are talking about now? Maybe you're not entirely right? Maybe we, so to speak, think worse about the country in which we live?
Dmitry Muratov: There is an absolutely total desire to demonstrate one’s own loyalty, starting from the very top... Look, the other day one journalist came from the office of the current Deputy Prime Minister Vladimir Yakovlev, the former mayor of St. Petersburg. He once survived from St. Petersburg the current President Putin and his teacher Sobchak. Then Putin forced Yakovlev out of St. Petersburg, replacing him with Matvienko. Now Yakovlev sits in Putin’s government, and behind him hangs a huge portrait of Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.
But that's what's at the top. And look what...
Egor Yakovlev: Well, Yakovlev couldn’t have anything else on his mind. I know Yakovlev well enough, and according to his level, this should have been hanging.
Dmitry Muratov: This is a sign, Yegor Vladimirovich, it’s just a sign. This is complete lack of independence and complete wild, total fear of what the boss, yes, the boss of the country, will think. In general, Yegor Vladimirovich, where are you... Well, we hired a hired worker for 4 years as the country’s manager - Putin, right? Well, where have you seen portraits of hired workers printed on all school notebooks and hung behind their backs by deputy prime ministers? Well, you just need to look at it all with normal eyes.
The same thing happens in society. Look, the day before yesterday, I think, there was this congress of the Russian Union of Industrialists and Entrepreneurs, which is sometimes called an oligarchic trade union. They were told: “Tuts about YUKOS and about Khodorkovsky languishing in the dungeons” - they said: “There are tsits.” They were given a candy called “now you will not buy back the land for your enterprises” - and Andrei Kolesnikov writes brilliantly in Kommersant that Putin has not heard such applause even at United Russia.
You see, they betrayed their colleague, who was arrested in the same way as Bin Laden would have been arrested - with Alpha, with blocked planes, with a night landing in Novosibirsk. They immediately handed him over, even the brave Chubais. Okay, at least he didn’t go there, didn’t disgrace himself, but ended up in Nizhnevartovsk, urgently launching a state district power plant there. But what is this?
People with money, people with a past, people with backbones. I don’t believe that people without the will could build a fairly modern economy, which they are now partially building. And what happened to them? What kind of disgrace was that?
Egor Yakovlev: Dima, why are you surprised, in general, that the generation that originates from Pavlik Morozov today behaves this way and not otherwise? You see, I may be surprised by other things. I can be surprised that during perestroika (a time that you and I really value and love), during the time of Mikhail Sergeevich Gorbachev, people did not change. But I hope that people had to change, because it’s also funny if their families were now raised in a completely different way.
Dmitry Muratov: Egor Vladimirovich, I’ll tell you this. Everyone lives, it seems to me, this very same life. It’s just that for some, freedom is like a condition for living life to the fullest, while for others it is only security or only money. This is what we are dealing with now. Of course, Seneca once said my favorite phrase, the phrase sounded brilliant. When he was reproached for why he first served a republic, a democracy, and then a tyrant, he said: “I am convinced that the method of government does not affect the amount of personal happiness.” This may be true. But watch how decent people begin to wag their eyes, and everything will happen, as happened in Zoshchenko’s story, in his memoirs, when he crossed to the other side of the street, so that, God forbid, he would not compromise someone if he had to meet him . This is simply shameful.
Egor Yakovlev: I believe that society today is filled with two fears. We'll talk about the second fear later. Fear number one is the choking of the independent press, the free press, the uncensored existence. And, in general, knowing that four of the rest stations became state-owned, this does not surprise me, although I cannot say that, looking at the newspapers today and seeing the assessments, for example, for YUKOS, which even such newspapers give , like Izvestia (although after Raf Shakirov one would like to think that they will be different... not after, but with the arrival of Raf Shakirov), nevertheless, in general, newspapers behave quite freely.
Well, according to your teaching, when I saw in Novaya Gazeta the preface to the book “Tales of a Kremlin Digger” by Lena Tregubova, I read this book, moreover, last night I simply talked to Lena, expressing my respect to her. So, I still can’t imagine that somewhere in your youth (I’m not even talking about mine) such a book could have been published in this country. After all, it was published, so obviously our talk about the throat of freedom of the press being blocked is not very correct?
Dmitry Muratov: Well, of course, we haven’t gotten around to it yet. I got my hands on television. You said four buttons, but I’ll tell you differently. A year ago, out of six buttons on federal channels, meter buttons, only one was directly state-owned - this is Russian Television, and today there are six, well, with the partial exception of TVS and NTV in particular, there is already a lot of state there. That's it, six.
Yulia Latynina said a wonderful phrase in Novaya Gazeta: of all industries, television is the most important for the president. This is the most important industry. They're done with her, now... I have no doubts about this...
Egor Yakovlev: At what plan?
Dmitry Muratov: ... that they will take on those who are smaller, who have a smaller audience reach. For a long time now, there has been controversy surrounding Echo of Moscow. By the way, the same Tregubova, excuse me, actually has a ban on her profession.
Egor Yakovlev: She was fired, by the way.
Dmitry Muratov: What are you saying, Yegor Vladimirovich?
Egor Yakovlev: Yes.
Dmitry Muratov: I didn't expect that! We have a free press, a free country.
Egor Yakovlev: I accept your humor, but I say that she has been left without work since the 1st, as she told me yesterday. And, probably, we need, although the guild principle has long been lost in many respects, we somehow need to help this woman because she was left without a livelihood.
Dmitry Muratov: Dear Lena, I repeat to you the offer that I have already made three times: come to work with us as the head of the political department of Novaya Gazeta. Hello, Muratov.
Egor Yakovlev: Doesn't work?
Dmitry Muratov: She said she would think about it. After this book, she needs to move away from what is happening.
Egor Yakovlev: I still return once again to the topic of critical materials. The Americans somehow made a rule for themselves, they came to the conclusion that after Watergate it was pointless to hope that critical materials would be charisma on which this or that could be built. Critical materials are no longer charismatic.
It hardly makes sense to think that our critical material could be charisma, after the vice president appeared with six suitcases of incriminating evidence, the president himself fell from a bridge, and so on. What should a newspaper do that is accustomed - especially Novaya Gazeta - to the maximum amount of critical material? Maybe the problem is not in the critical material, but in some other approaches?
Nadezhda Pertseva: If possible, Dmitry, you will answer this question after the break. And now I would briefly read out some of the messages that came to us via pager.
“Please explain the situation with the Konservator newspaper. Nikolai from St. Petersburg.”
"Muratov. I am proud of my fellow countryman. Alexander, Samara."
“Everything connected with Anna Politkovskaya causes distrust and hostility. After each trip to Chechnya, she goes to the West to receive bonuses. They probably pay for the feelings that the listener experiences. She hates the Russian army.”
Then the following message came: “The speaker, who is sputtering and trying in every possible way to throw mud at the president, would be worth reminding that on the eve of the March elections, 70 percent of Russians are currently ready to vote for Putin. So continue on.”
“These are two of my favorite editors. I subscribed to Obshchaya Gazeta and Novaya. Among my friends and relatives there are many determined people who are of the same mind as Muratov and Yakovlev. Don’t despair, we really hope for you. Your reader and listener ".
And one more message that came to us via pager.
“Muratova, Yakovleva. Apparently, those who demanded lustration were right. Starovoitova was apparently killed for this. But without repentance there will be no joy. Alexander Georgievich, Samara.
So let's continue.
Egor Yakovlev: Since we ourselves came up with the topic of repentance, I want to return to the second... That is, I see two fears in today's society. The first is the deprivation of freedom of speech, which we started talking about, and maybe we haven’t finished. And the second is the influence of the security forces on the entire politics of Russia.
And here, Dima, I would like to hear from you your sincere opinion. You see, in your memory, in mine, this department was cleared out at least three times. The first time it was cleared was in the times after Lavrenty Pavlovich. He was cleared out when Korzhakov and Barsukov were removed. It was cleared after the putsch. And the wild plant continues to develop and threatens our lives more and more. What's the matter? What can be done?
I have one answer, I will tell it later. But now I'm interested in your opinion. What can be done to rid Russia of the horror and fear of security forces?
Dmitry Muratov: Egor Vladimirovich, briefly, three theses. This means, firstly, there is no horror and fear, there is an understanding of what we are dealing with. The understanding for me is this: the current GKB or FSB is a business, it is a well-structured vertically integrated business that is primarily concerned with its material interests.
I can remind you of the episode of the 1991 coup. After all, the entire meeting that led to the putsch, and then to the collapse of the country, for which all the security officers are now fighting and saying: look, the democrats have ruined the country - this meeting at the ABS facility of the First Main Directorate of the State Bureau of the USSR was held by Mr. Vladimir Aleksandrovich Kryuchkov, whom another former PGU employee, Lieutenant Colonel Putin, recently called as an honorary guest on Chekist Day. Then it was their business, and then there was power.
Egor Yakovlev: But I know that at the same point, Lieutenant Colonel Putin dictated his first memoirs.
Dmitry Muratov: On "ABS", yes, I agree. This means, firstly, the role is underestimated... They were supposed to protect the state, but as a result they destroyed it by planning a coup.
Now they are doing business. This is the furniture business, this is the weapons business, this is the protection of a huge number of commercial structures.
We have published repeatedly how, for example, in Nakhodka or in the North Caucasus, current, and at the leading level, employees of the Federal Security Service simply agreed (for example, in Adygea) about what business would now go to them, otherwise they threaten almost contract killings. And we printed these records, we handed it all over to the prosecutor's office.
This is a big, serious business. Unfortunately, the authorities have now begun to rely on this business. Moreover, if at first the security officers wanted to provide protection (sorry for this slang) or control other people's businesses by protecting them, now they no longer want this, now they want to own it. This is exactly what cannot be allowed.
And for me personally there is only one antidote. The Cheka, the KGB, the FSB, the president, this underground pocket Federation Council have no meaning if there are courts in the country. Now, if there is a trial in the country, anything can continue, exactly until the second when the two parties meet in the trial. And no one can call this court. And judges in general should become, in my opinion, such “God-bearers”; they should understand that everything now, the majority in the country, rests on them. When they behave exactly in accordance with the law. It seems to me that this is the link that is worth pulling on now - pulling out the courts so that everything will be like this.
Egor Yakovlev: I understand you that the reason for the wildly growing forces of “law enforcement” is that they just want to make money.
Dmitry Muratov: Yes Yes.
Egor Yakovlev: But this is not the answer to why they exist. Because, you see, there were quite a lot of people who wanted - probably our mutual friend Mikhail Sergeevich and others - wanted something else. Why do they exist?
They used to exist because the party was interested in it, right? Who were they weapons for? First of all, for the party. Now who are they a weapon for? Why do they exist with such power? Or are they, so to speak, completely lined up from the lieutenant colonel in rows and ready, in general, to lead us to a KGB coup?
Dmitry Muratov: Yegor Vladimirovich, the fate of the KGB or FSB does not depend on anyone. They determine their own destiny; it is a self-developing structure. They set the rules for themselves, they themselves migrate from one government agency to another, and then return. There are no exes.
Egor Yakovlev: I would really like to call Novaya Gazeta a self-developing structure, but I understand that it cannot be a self-developing structure, living under the current sky.
Nadezhda Pertseva: Let's listen to the call. Good afternoon. We are listening to you. Introduce youreself.
Listener: My name is Irina. Thank you for your word. After I asked a sharp question to Yuri Afanasyev, saying that I believed that he was a skillful renegade posing as the conscience of the nation, I was simply not allowed into the next program, where Shevtsova was, although I got through and was asked to call pager. So, I say: where is censorship? Censorship is primarily on Radio Liberty.
And now a question for Muratov. Tell me, which newspaper has currently been closed or at least one journalist has been fired for political reasons? And are you specifically prohibited from publishing any articles?
Finally. I love your newspaper, I read it. Thank you.
Nadezhda Pertseva: Well, first of all, I want to remind you that your pager message in the last program was read. Well, now I give the floor to our guests.
Egor Yakovlev: Dima, if I say that Obshchaya Gazeta was closed, I will probably be wrong. You speak.
Dmitry Muratov: You don’t need to give me any hints, Yegor Vladimirovich. Firstly, you know what happened with the Obshchaya Gazeta - the Obshchaya Gazeta no longer exists. This is the first thing. Secondly, two days ago, Nersesyan, a lawyer for the Glasnost Defense Foundation, returned from Tolyatti; he was studying the story of how the second editor-in-chief of the Togliatti newspaper Togliatti Review was killed for the second time in a row. I can, excuse me, give you dozens of such examples.
Excuse me, I don’t want to talk about it, I didn’t want to talk about it, but we still don’t understand much about the death of Yuri Petrovich Shchekochikhin, who was a deputy at Novaya Gazeta and a Duma deputy. In our newspaper alone, two more people have died in the last three years. Head of the department Igor Domnikov. The killer, the hired killer has not yet been found, the case has been under the control of the Minister of Internal Affairs for three years. Human rights activist and our Chechen correspondent Viktor Alekseevich Popkov was killed. The killers have not yet been found, and the car, which was shot as evidence, was parked in the district prosecutor's office, was sold for spare parts.
Nadezhda Pertseva: And a message-question, which also concerns Yuri Shchekochikhin: “Has anything new become known about his case? Gennady, Moscow.”
Dmitry Muratov: I can only tell you one thing for now: research continues into everything connected with the death of Yuri Shchekochikhin. And definitely about the results of this study and about the examinations that are being carried out, and about what has become known since that terrible July 3rd for us, when Yura died at 3:55 in the morning from a strange illness, where the allergen, the source of the allergen itself has not been established , - we will definitely inform you about this. But we cannot now, for example, declare that Shchekochikhin was killed or, conversely, that Shchekochikhin died of a strange disease, although he was actually a healthy person in prison, since Yura Shchekochikhin would look at this very skeptically. And this PR “on the bones” is by no means for Yura and not for us.
Nadezhda Pertseva: And one more call. Good afternoon.
Listener: Good afternoon. Artist Smarchevsky. Mr. Yakovlev, you remember, 15 years ago, in 1988, when I was convicted for a picture where I painted a cow with Gorbachev, you were the only newspaper to publish about it.
Egor Yakovlev: No, I don't remember, sorry.
Listener: Well, it was the most famous painting, it was published after your article in all countries of the world. I went abroad and lived in America. I've arrived now...
Egor Yakovlev: It feels so good when you do something kind for someone.
Listener: And you know, you are a knight of perestroika. I ask you, please give me the opportunity to tell your readers what happened to this picture and how it happened in general. This will be a very interesting story for you. And, in fact, it is expected not only in Russia, but also in many countries. Imagine, I drew a cow with Gorbachev, the cow disappeared, Gorbachev disappeared, the Soviet Union disappeared - and this was the forerunner of what you are talking about today. This, in my opinion, would be interesting. Please ask your editor to take my phone number.
Nadezhda Pertseva: Thank you very much for your call.
Egor Yakovlev: They'll take the phone.
So, we are touching on the moment of critical materials, Dima. This means that I still have a deep feeling: when we write about a scoundrel minister, a scoundrel official, about corruption among officials, the old idea hangs over us that we need to replace the chair in the Kremlin - and everything will be all right. The chairs have been changed more than once before our eyes, but everything remains, in general, far from good.
What should a newspaper do today to help the reader cope with the very difficult life in Russia that has developed for him today?
Dmitry Muratov: Honestly? We have nothing personal, excuse me, neither with Putin, nor with Zyuganov, nor with anyone. We, as the reader said that 70 percent will vote for Putin, yes, we represent the interests of those 30 percent, of course, who want to know more than about love. This is what we will do, regardless of whether there is efficiency or not. This is such a market segment, if you like, in this respect we are also marketers. We believe that this should be done and that we should write about it.
Nadezhda Pertseva: And we have calls. Please.
Listener: I'm talking about buying seats in parliament.
Nadezhda Pertseva: Did you want to ask some question?
Listener: Yes, I wanted to ask a question. From Moscow, Natalya Vladimirovna. In the last program, Yegor Vladimirovich Yakovlev said that seats in parliament are being bought.
Egor Yakovlev: And they sell.
Listener: And they sell. Well, I respect Yavlinsky very much, and Yavlinsky said that they took, for example, financial assistance from YUKOS, for which they demanded 4th place on the list. So, you see, I’m not against the oligarchs, I don’t want these oligarchs to be arrested like this, I’m sorry...
Egor Yakovlev: Khodorkovsky.
Listener: I feel sorry for Khodorkovsky. And law enforcement agencies are not under control, everything is clear. But I’ve always voted for Yabloko, and here I understand that we need to take this help, divide it into four - and there will be a place in the Yabloko party... And it seems to me that the oligarchs themselves, in general... then it’s their fault when they started buying everything...
Egor Yakovlev: Well, you know, I believe that not only the one who buys is to blame, but also the one who sells. Although, in general, Grigory Alekseevich is a close personal friend of mine, and Dimin, we are all friends together, in this case I do not share his point of view. And I think that if...
You know, when Gusinsky was arrested in Greece - Gusinsky helped the Obshchaya Gazeta all the time, he was not the only source of the Obshchaya Gazeta, but he helped the Obshchaya Gazeta - I considered it necessary to speak out, although I understood that I would not be happy about it will deliver, in defense of Vladimir Alexandrovich. I think that today I miss Grisha’s voice in defense of Khodorkovsky. I don’t know about Dima.
Dmitry Muratov: You know, you asked, in my opinion, an absolutely stunning question: can we trust the party for which we have always voted, if this party sold places on the list to someone? And in this case they meant YUKOS and Yabloko. You know, this is how you can answer on the square: down with the parties that sell places and the oligarchs that buy them. And I want to ask you to think with me, maybe.
Look, Yabloko absolutely frankly, absolutely openly declared that it was one of the sponsors of the party, and this was never prohibited (after all, the communists still have not disbanded themselves due to the fact that the manufacturer Savva Morozov gave them crazy those days, grandmothers), they openly, Yabloko, declare that they have a sponsor of the party, a partner of the party - YUKOS. YUKOS, without hiding it from anyone, without acting under the carpet, says: “We sponsor liberal, democratic movements, including and first of all Yabloko.”
There is no law on lobbying in our country...
Egor Yakovlev: True, it is difficult for the Communist Party of the Russian Federation to enter here.
Dmitry Muratov: No, no, in our country there is no law on lobbying, and for the first time, of their own free will and on their own initiative, they declared mutual interests for each other. And it seems to me that this is precisely the absolutely civilized approach.
And I will also describe the uncivilized approach to you. Look, the ruling party - I won’t name it, so that, God forbid, some kind of propaganda is later attributed to Radio Liberty - the ruling party, which believes that it will be the ruling party, includes approximately 30 governors. Will they enter parliament and leave their gubernatorial seats? No never. It’s just that when they win, they will leave the list, and their places in parliament will be taken by the next, unknown directors of companies, directors of enterprises - and this is undeclared lobbying.
And it is absolutely clear that this is a serious party business, these are new party contributions. When they are not declared, it is scary. When they are stated, you can think about it, in any case, it is much more open.
Nadezhda Pertseva: A message that continues this topic is via pager. “It’s a fairy tale that Khodorkovsky is an oligarch. You still have to become an oligarch. Putin managed to do it. Dima.”
And we still have a call, if possible. The listeners have been waiting for us for too long. Please be kind, you are on air.
Listener: Hello. Alexander, Moscow. Question for Dmitry Andreevich. I'll try to keep it short. Dmitry Andreevich, we now have a policy of fighting terrorism, and in Moscow there are a lot of streets with the names of terrorists - the first question.
Second question. How do you feel about the fact that in a very short time, very prominent politicians were killed very quickly or simply disappeared? This is not just a showdown, everyone understands it.
And the third question. As soon as the president's rating drops a little, something happens quickly - some next “Nord-Ost”, some next war. “Prophetic Oleg” from the KGB immediately appears - and the rating rises. Thank you.
Dmitry Muratov: It's a very funny question about the streets. I never thought about it. Great question, thanks for it. Let's assume that this is a question that does not need to be answered. Everyone just loved its aesthetic quality.
Egor Yakovlev: In general, you need to get used to the streets. My grandmother taught for a very long time that Myasnitskaya is now called Kirovskaya. Now I teach that Kirovskaya is called Myasnitskaya.
Dmitry Muratov: Regarding the president's rating. You know, I would like the president and “Nord-Ost”, despite the fact that I very much doubt the accuracy of the genesis of the explosions of houses in Moscow, Volgodonsk and the exercises in Ryazan, I would, of course, the president with “Nord-Ost” just like that I didn’t connect it directly.
But when the rating really starts to fall, Rogozin immediately begins to build a scythe through Tuzla - and this is such a whole geopolitical serious project, 600 KamAZ trucks are needed for it and a lot of air, and nodules on his thickened cheeks... This is absolutely certain, here I completely agree with you.
Egor Yakovlev: Here I completely and completely agree with you. Dima, I want, since our time is coming to an end, I wanted to touch on at least one question, how we can be useful to the reader. In general, no matter how it is, we argue about critical materials, not critical materials, that’s not the point. Almost today, the newspaper reminds me a little... Probably - you remember how in childhood - when I asked you for sunflowers, you would take a handful from your pocket and pour it out to me - this is approximately what our newspapers look like according to the information. Because newspapers don’t help me in any way except these sunflowers of information that I already know or will find out tomorrow, but may not know.
In my opinion, there is only one problem: be smart, otherwise you will be beaten. That is, a newspaper should help the reader think. When the reader thinks, he will take a more serious approach to the rating, which for some grows to absolutely incredible, some kind of astronomical proportions. Can a newspaper still help the reader think in order to free him from politics and from power? Because I don’t see any other way to free ourselves from politics and power, except for personal thinking.
Dmitry Muratov: I don’t know what to answer, Egor Vladimirovich. I just haven't come to this idea yet. I believe that if our circulation is growing, it means that people are interested in learning what we are writing about. I am still at a certain impasse in front of your tough question, I have not yet reached it. As Alice says, I still have room to grow under this table.
Egor Yakovlev: But Komsomolskaya Pravda also ensures its circulation.
Dmitry Muratov: Well, of course. Only they are below the belt, and we are above the belt, although they do it with talent.
Here they called about Anna Politkovskaya, that she was risking her life in Chechnya.
Nadezhda Pertseva: There was this message.
Dmitry Muratov: Yes, on a pager. He risks his life in Chechnya in order to later receive the Nobel Prize, and splashes his saliva on the country. I will not answer this person. I ask, if he is a normal and decent person, to call the same pager he called and leave your phone number. They will call him back from the reception desk of Novaya Gazeta and invite him to go on his first business trip with Politkovskaya to Chechnya, so that he will understand perfectly well at what price, as it seems to him, the imaginary fees that he attributes to her are earned.
Nadezhda Pertseva: And we still have a listener. Good afternoon.
Listener: My name is Tatyana Bogomolova. I want to thank both Yegor Vladimirovich and Dmitry, because Obshchaya Gazeta was our most important newspaper, and now Novaya Gazeta remains. After the closure of TVS, this newspaper, Novaya Gazeta, is our only window into the Russian world, and it helps us not only think, as you just said, it helps us live, because we trust only this newspaper. And in particular, only in this newspaper, from the generally heroic, absolutely incredible, in my opinion, reports of Anna Politkovskaya, who risks her life, do we learn about what is happening in Chechnya. “Novaya Gazeta” is the only newspaper that is “not tired” (let’s say in quotes) of writing about Chechnya and telling us everything about the horror that no one wants to think about.
Nadezhda Pertseva: Thanks for your call.
Egor Yakovlev: Thank you. And I am very pleased that at the end of our program you said so many kind words about Dima.
Nadezhda Pertseva: And we have literally another minute and a half, if possible, to briefly exchange some words.
Dmitry Muratov: Can I say? You see, Yegor Vladimirovich always asks very tough and very precise questions. I don’t have answers to them, I just want to say that one of the most important answers that we in the newspaper understood for ourselves is that you need to live your life according to the same standards and treat your profession approximately in the same way as the person who had I would have dreamed of doing an interview, but it turned out that today we talked together, I mean Yakovlev. And I had to say it. And I am very glad that I have this opportunity.
Other programs of the month:
- Liliya Shevtsova
Editor-in-Chief of Novaya Gazeta
Journalist, editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta since 1995. In 1993-1995, he was an employee of the same publication (called "New Daily Newspaper") - a member of the editorial board, deputy editor-in-chief and special correspondent. Previously worked as editor of the information department (1990-1992) and head of the working youth department (1987-1990) of the newspaper " TVNZ". Co-owner of the Krokodil magazine since 2005.
Dmitry Andreevich Muratov was born on October 30, 1961 in Kuibyshev (since 1991 - Samara). In 1983, he graduated from the Faculty of Philology of Kuibyshev State University.
In 1983-1985, Muratov served in the ranks of the USSR Armed Forces (later the journalist called himself a sergeant Soviet army) . He also mentioned his military specialty- “a specialist who classifies communications equipment.”
Muratov began his career as a journalist in the newspaper Volzhsky Komsomolets. In 1987, he became the head of the working youth department of the Komsomolskaya Pravda newspaper; in 1990, he took the position of editor of the publication's information department.
In August 1991, during the putsch of the State Emergency Committee, Muratov, together with a team from Komsomolskaya Pravda, took part in the publication of the illegal Obshchaya Gazeta. The newspaper was published for only three days; publication was discontinued after the failure of the rebellion of the “Gekachepists”.
At the end of 1992, Muratov was one of the founders of the 6th Floor journalists' association (the editorial office of Komsomolskaya Pravda was located on the 6th floor of the Press publishing complex in Moscow). The partnership included journalists who, “as a result of a deep conflict between “fathers and sons,” left the editorial office of Komsomolskaya Pravda (Muratov himself left the editorial office of KP in November 1992). In 1993, the “6th Floor” partnership became the founder of “Novaya Daily Gazeta” (NEG, later changed its name to “Novaya Gazeta”), , . It was noted that the newspaper was founded with the financial support of the first President of the USSR, Mikhail Gorbachev. The first issue of NEG was published on April 1, 1993.
In the newspaper, Muratov began writing the column “Rating of Lies.” In 1993, he joined the editorial board of NEG and became its deputy editor-in-chief. In December 1994 - January 1995, the journalist was a special correspondent for the publication in the combat zone on the territory of the Chechen Republic; participated in issues of the sports review NEG "Fair Game", .
In February 1995, Muratov took the position of editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta. In this position, he was subsequently repeatedly mentioned in the press. He continued to publish as the author of materials for the publication he headed, , , .
As the editor-in-chief of "Novaya" Muratov appeared in reports of the death of the editor of the newspaper's special projects department Igor Domnikov (killed in May 2000), his deputy Yuri Shchekochikhin (died in July 2003, according to the official version, as a result of acute allergic syndrome), columnist " Novaya Gazeta" Anna Politkovskaya (killed in October 2006) and freelance correspondent for the publication Anastasia Baburova. Muratov connected the incident with professional activity journalists , , , , , , , , .
In 2004, Muratov, as part of a group of Russian public figures, politicians and journalists was one of the founders of the Committee "2008: Free Choice", . In the same year, he became one of those who appealed to the Supreme Court Russian Federation with a statement about the cancellation of the results of the elections to the State Duma of the fourth convocation held in 2003. The applicants cited the basis for this as “a massive violation of the order of information support for elections” and “misleading voters through the dissemination of false information, which led to a distortion of their actual will” (meaning the “dead souls” technology, when voters are asked to vote for well-known people, after which they refuse to work in the Duma, and completely different people get into parliament). However, the actions taken by the applicants had no results - the Central Election Commission resolution on establishing the general results of the elections of State Duma deputies was not canceled. Muratov left the 2008 Committee in 2005. “I personally am absolutely disappointed in the way the Democrats tried to unite,” he commented on his decision.
In 2005, Muratov became one of the co-owners of the Krokodil magazine. In the summer of 2008, the media reported that the publication of the publication had been suspended for financial reasons, and that it itself was on the verge of closure. “Advertisers do not want to be associated with political satire,” noted Gazeta.Ru.
In June 2006, at the World Newspaper Congress, Mikhail Gorbachev and businessman and politician Alexander Lebedev (who at that time was a member of the United Russia parliamentary faction) became co-owners of the Novaya Gazeta headed by Muratov: 10 percent of the shares went to Gorbachev, 39 percent to Lebedev, the remaining 51 percent was received by the publication staff in a single indivisible package. Gorbachev promised that “the newspaper will maintain pluralism of opinions, and the new co-owners will not interfere in the publication’s politics.” In March 2008, Muratov announced that Gorbachev and Lebedev had suggested that he create a holding company based on the publication, “which would include several newspapers, radio stations, Internet resources, and possibly its own sociological service.” At the beginning of June 2008, the media holding was registered. It was called "New Media".
In March 2008, Muratov appeared in reports dedicated to the scandalous admission of the President of the Chechen Republic Ramzan Kadyrov to the Union of Journalists of Russia for “merits in the development of Chechen journalism, free press, creation ideal conditions for the work of local media." After the news that Kadyrov had become a member of the creative association of press workers, some well-known Russian journalists, including Muratov, expressed their intention to leave the Union of Journalists. “I simply categorically do not intend to be in the same alliance with cannibals,” noted the editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta in his statement. However, in the same month, the secretariat of the Union of Journalists of Russia canceled the decision of its Chechen branch to accept the President of Chechnya as a member of the organization, “as contrary to the charter”: it was reported that not a single evidence of Kadyrov’s professional journalistic activities had been found.
In October 2009, President Kadyrov asked to initiate a libel case against several Novaya Gazeta journalists and Muratov personally. In his statement, the Chechen leader called the accusations made in newspaper publications about his involvement in murders, torture and other crimes as slander. They were talking about the articles “There is a hunt for languages in Moscow”, “Mukhavat Salakh Masayev: I was held hostage by Ramzan Kadyrov for almost four months”, “There is no fear”, “The last Chechen case of Stanislav Markelov”, “The name of Russia is death” and "Vienna Murder" (the last article was devoted to the results of a journalistic investigation into the murder former employee protection of Kadyrov Umar Israilov, which was conducted by a correspondent of The New York Times Christopher Chivers). In February 2010, in the Basmanny Court of Moscow, a representative of the Chechen president and Novaya Gazeta lawyers refused to enter into a settlement agreement on the lawsuit. In the same month, it became known that Moscow law enforcement agencies refused to initiate a libel case based on Kadyrov’s statement. His defense promised to appeal the court decision to the prosecutor's office, but Kadyrov soon withdrew several of his claims, including claims against the head of the Memorial center Oleg Orlov, the head of the human rights organization of the Moscow Helsinki Group (MHG) Lyudmila Alekseeva, as well as "Novaya Gazeta" and its editor,). Kadyrov’s press service explained that the Chechen president made this decision at the request of his mother, who asked her son not to sue older people.
Muratov worked not only in print media, but also on television: in 1997 he was the host of the “Press Club” program (ATV - ORTV), in 1998-1999 - the host of the weekly program “The Court is Coming” on the NTV channel. He also collaborated with the weekly program “Scandals of the Week” (JSC “Vzglyad” - TV channel “TV-6 Moscow”).
Muratov was awarded the Order of Friendship and the Order of Honor. He has been awarded a number of prestigious titles and awards, including the Memorial Foundation Award, the Henry Nannen Award (Germany), the 2007 International Press Freedom Award established by the Committee to Protect Journalists, and the Stalker International Film Festival Award for Citizenship. , integrity and contribution to the development of Russian journalism", .
Among the members of Muratov’s family, his daughter was mentioned in the press. In 1997, the editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta said that she wanted to become an archaeologist, while he wanted her to become a lawyer.
Used materials
Kadyrov withdrew claims against human rights activists. - Moscow's comsomolets, 09.02.2010
Kadyrov's mother asks her son not to sue human rights activists. - TVNZ, 09.02.2010
Alvi Karimov. The President of the Chechen Republic decided to withdraw the claims against human rights activists and journalists. - Website of the President of the Chechen Republic, 09.02.2010
Elena Khrustaleva. The next court hearing on Kadyrov's lawsuit against Novaya Gazeta will take place on February 15. - Caucasian Knot, 06.02.2010
Ramzan Kadyrov was denied a libel case. - BusinessFM, 05.02.2010
Mikhail Smilyan. Kadyrov's lawyer promised surprises to human rights activists. - Newspaper (gzt.ru), 02.02.2010
Ramzan Kadyrov is seeking to initiate a case against Lyudmila Alekseeva. - Caucasian Knot, 02.02.2010
Yulia Kotova. Kadyrov wants to receive a ruble from each copy of Novaya Gazeta. - Newspaper (gzt.ru), 04.12.2009
Dmitry Muratov. Media amplifier public opinion. - New Newspaper, 01.06.2009. - №57
The Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation closed the case of the death of Yuri Shchekochikhin. - IA Rosbalt, 09.04.2009
Viennese murder. - New Newspaper, 04.02.2009
Elina Bilevskaya. Post-gas syndrome. - Independent newspaper , 04.02.2009
Nikolay Sergeev. Announced murder. - Kommersant, 20.01.2009. - №8 (4063)
Victoria Buravchenko. "Crocodile" doesn't bite without money. - Gazeta.Ru, 13.08.2008
Ekaterina Trofimova. Alexander Lebedev became president. - RBC, 06.06.2008
Shchekochikhin's death was included in the criminal case. - Newspaper (gzt.ru), 04.04.2008
Maryam Magomedova. Fifteen years is no joke. - New news, 02.04.2008
New "New". - Profile, 31.03.2008
Musa Muradov, Natalya Bespalova. Ramzan Kadyrov was accepted as a journalist. - Kommersant, 06.03.2008. - № 37(3854)
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